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barny

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Warren is taking the lead on impeachment :).
It's too early to say who I'd vote for in a primary, but it's Warren. By a longshot.

(And on a I'm an idiot note, I'm fighting with folks who are mis-remembering Biden's plagiarism campaign. (He plagiarized a speech, told a few lies, revealed his F in law school). That happened. (They are saying it was all just a minor mistake. It wasn't a mistake. They were lies).

I don't hate him. I always considered him a bit of an old - dotty uncle. President? Nah. He's a 'fibber.'

I mean, I'll vote for him and all if it came down to it. He's a whole lot better than what we have. But in the primary? I feel like it's the last election all over again. Democrats put forward someone from the past (Clinton) and think that's a way forward..........
 
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I wouldn't really give a whole lot of credit to anyone that's in a competitive Democratic primary race for supporting impeachment. It's better than not doing it, but in most cases it's not any less of a politically calculated move. In a field where people are running around talking about free college and slavery reparations, it shouldn't come as any surprise that a fair amount of the candidates will take this position.
 

barny

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I wouldn't really give a whole lot of credit to anyone that's in a competitive Democratic primary race for supporting impeachment. It's better than not doing it, but in most cases it's not any less of a politically calculated move. In a field where people are running around talking about free college and slavery reparations, it shouldn't come as any surprise that a fair amount of the candidates will take this position.
To be fair, I like Warren because she's really good at crafting policy that aligns with the things I and so many people in the US want to see happen. The fact that I get to hear her say that she supports impeachment is admittedly sprinkes on top, or a low hanging fruit, but it's still good to hear someone with her kind of influence at least attempt to tug Pelosi towards some sense, even if it is a calculated manuever.
 
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To be fair, I like Warren because she's really good at crafting policy that aligns with the things I and so many people in the US want to see happen. The fact that I get to hear her say that she supports impeachment is admittedly sprinkes on top, or a low hanging fruit, but it's still good to hear someone with her kind of influence at least attempt to tug Pelosi towards some sense, even if it is a calculated manuever.
I have very mixed feelings about Elizabeth Warren. There are other candidates that I agree with on more issues, but she's one of the most qualified people running, because she's very knowledgeable and has a lot of experience both making policy in the executive branch and legislation in congress, which to me is the most important thing. On the other hand, I really can't stand her. There are other people I can't listen to because of the substance of the things that they say, but she is the only person of any political persuasion that I can think of that I just can't listen to regardless of substance. Maybe it's just me, but everything she says sounds like a dramatic reading by Marge Simpson, and I just have to immediately turn it off. I'm not really sure how important things like that should be, but I think it's more important for presidential candidates than most other positions.
 
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I have very mixed feelings about Elizabeth Warren. There are other candidates that I agree with on more issues, but she's one of the most qualified people running, because she's very knowledgeable and has a lot of experience both making policy in the executive branch and legislation in congress, which to me is the most important thing. On the other hand, I really can't stand her. There are other people I can't listen to because of the substance of the things that they say, but she is the only person of any political persuasion that I can think of that I just can't listen to regardless of substance. Maybe it's just me, but everything she says sounds like a dramatic reading by Marge Simpson, and I just have to immediately turn it off. I'm not really sure how important things like that should be, but I think it's more important for presidential candidates than most other positions.
I agree that Liz Warren sometimes comes off like a massive nerd (funnily enough I've seen her compared to Lisa Simpson more than Marge in the past) but that's so so low on my list of priorities. She's proven that she can lead/get things done and many of her policies align closely with my views. I also believe that if she's elected she's going to actually fight to enact those policies, she won't fold at the first sign of resistance. That's all I really care about. I want someone who will make the country better, it doesn't need to be a charismatic smooth talker who I can go have a beer with.
 

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All paid for by her wealth tax!!!

Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Monday proposed eliminating the student loan debts of tens of millions of Americans and making all public colleges tuition-free, staking out an ambitious stance on one of the central policy debates of the 2020 Democratic primary.

Student debt and college affordability have become a key dividing line in the Democratic race, between more progressive candidates who favor sweeping new tuition and student-loan benefits and others who support more incremental adjustments to the way Americans pay for education.

Warren's new plan would forgive $50,000 in student loans for Americans in households earning less than $100,000 a year. According to analysis provided by her campaign, that would provide immediate relief to more than 95% of the 45 million Americans with student debt. The Massachusetts Democrat and 2020 contender is also calling for a drastic increase in federal spending on higher education that would make tuition and fees free for all students at two- and four-year public colleges and expand grants for lower-income and minority students to cover costs like housing, food, books and child care.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/22/politics/elizabeth-warren-student-debt-college-tuition-plan/index.html
 
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I agree that Liz Warren sometimes comes off like a massive nerd (funnily enough I've seen her compared to Lisa Simpson more than Marge in the past) but that's so so low on my list of priorities. She's proven that she can lead/get things done and many of her policies align closely with my views. I also believe that if she's elected she's going to actually fight to enact those policies, she won't fold at the first sign of resistance. That's all I really care about. I want someone who will make the country better, it doesn't need to be a charismatic smooth talker who I can go have a beer with.
It isn't high on my list of priorities either, but to me she's much more than just kind of nerdy. Listening to her talk is about on the same level as having someone crunching Cheetos right in my ear with their mouth open. I can't even fully explain why.

At least this free college stuff gives me a less superficial reason to not vote for her. Free college is a terrible idea. There's already way too many people in college that have no business being there. Instead of subsidizing peoples' bad decisions, we need to start doing a better job of presenting life options for people in high school instead of just telling everyone they should go to college when most of them are destined to fail.
 

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At least this free college stuff gives me a less superficial reason to not vote for her. Free college is a terrible idea. There's already way too many people in college that have no business being there. Instead of subsidizing peoples' bad decisions, we need to start doing a better job of presenting life options for people in high school instead of just telling everyone they should go to college when most of them are destined to fail.
This is a terrible take in an encomony that expects you to have a college degree just to make a little more than minimum wage. As a nation, we need to stop looking at education as a financially "terrible decision"; it needs to be considered a necissary one. In 10 or 20 years, it's really going to make or break things in terms of the nation's economic development and sustainability, especially when you throw China into the mix. If a nation wants to level the playing field and if a nation wants to take back power from corporations, education, and more specifically access to it, is key.
 
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This is a terrible take in an encomony that expects you to have a college degree just to make a little more than minimum wage. As a nation, we need to stop looking at education as a financially "terrible decision"; it needs to be considered a necissary one. In 10 or 20 years, it's really going to make or break things in terms of the nation's economic development and sustainability, especially when you throw China into the mix. If a nation wants to level the playing field and if a nation wants to take back power from corporations, education, and more specifically access to it, is key.
Education and college aren't synonymous. The reason that Americans hold so much student loan debt in the first place is because the college people are getting isn't worth what they're paying for it. If something isn't worth what it costs, it doesn't make much sense for society to buy a giant pile of it.

College education also isn't trending upward. People are slowly coming around to the fact that spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn things that are freely available to anyone with an internet connection isn't a very efficient way of doing things.

If the government invested in developing some of it's own credible and inexpensive ways to credit people for their knowledge, which in a lot of cases could just be drawn from the huge well of completely free information in front of everyone's faces, that'd be great. If the government invested in reforming K-12 curriculum to include more relevant life skills and less useless factoids, that'd be great also. What isn't great is using a bunch of tax payer money to pay for someone to spend a few years of their life studying medieval puppetry before taking a job as a night manager at Applebee's.
 
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jan

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This is a terrible take in an encomony that expects you to have a college degree just to make a little more than minimum wage. As a nation, we need to stop looking at education as a financially "terrible decision"; it needs to be considered a necissary one. In 10 or 20 years, it's really going to make or break things in terms of the nation's economic development and sustainability, especially when you throw China into the mix. If a nation wants to level the playing field and if a nation wants to take back power from corporations, education, and more specifically access to it, is key.
Many European countries find a way to educate people for free - including college.

I just love Warren. I'm sorry she isn't appealing. I don't get it. I like her scholarly - didactic way of speaking. I also like that she is a woman - though I think that is a hard sell, as well, in this country. :(
 

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I like her scholarly - didactic way of speaking. I also like that she is a woman - though I think that is a hard sell, as well, in this country. :(
I personally don't find her even that didactic. She's just basically the only candidate in the last million years who has ever spoken about policy, and people just are not used to someone like that. The thing is, she breaks it down so that everyone can understand what she's talking about; it isn't just a sea of jargon that comes out of her mouth. I'm a total nerd, so someone who is a self-described "policy wonk" appeals to me I guess. And yep, it certainly doesn't hurt that she's a woman; this country could use one in charge for a change.


What isn't great is using a bunch of tax payer money to pay for someone to spend a few years of their life studying medieval puppetry before taking a job as a night manager at Applebee's.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this might say more about you personally than it does about the actual collegiate/university system in the US. How many tens of people in this country study medieval puppetry? One? Two? And who's to say there isn't value in that? Even the most obtuse of areas of study require universal courses to obtain a degree. We just need the piece of paper at the end that says we spent four years working hard towards something.
 
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Many European countries find a way to educate people for free - including college.

I just love Warren. I'm sorry she isn't appealing. I don't get it. I like her scholarly - didactic way of speaking. I also like that she is a woman - though I think that is a hard sell, as well, in this country. :(
I could be wrong, but I don't think that any of the countries that currently offer free college education to their citizens are footing a bill anything like what we would be footing if the US started paying everyone's tuition in the current system. It also usually comes with strings attached in the form of qualifiers or service obligations.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this might say more about you personally than it does about the actual collegiate/university system in the US. How many tens of people in this country study medieval puppetry? One? Two? And who's to say there isn't value in that? Even the most obtuse of areas of study require universal courses to obtain a degree. We just need the piece of paper at the end that says we spent four years working hard towards something.
The medieval puppetry thing was obviously a joke, but the point is that paying everyone's tuition is also paying for a lot of waste. Only 60% of American college students have a 4 year degree within 6 years of starting college. Some of those will go back at some point, but that's a huge portion of money spent on college that doesn't even result in degrees. Of the people that do get degrees, a huge portion of those don't use their degrees in their every day lives or gain anything from it that significantly benefits society.

That's a pretty bad use of money, but an even worse use of money is just forgiving all current student debt. That's just giving away a trillion dollars for nothing in a way that rewards people for not paying their debts.

I'm all for making huge investments in education, but I'm just not for lighting money on fire. That's real money that can be spent on real things that can save peoples' lives or make the world a much better place in a variety of other ways, so it's pretty important to spend it wisely.
 

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I could be wrong, but I don't think that any of the countries that currently offer free college education to their citizens are footing a bill anything like what we would be footing if the US started paying everyone's tuition in the current system. It also usually comes with strings attached in the form of qualifiers or service obligations.



The medieval puppetry thing was obviously a joke, but the point is that paying everyone's tuition is also paying for a lot of waste. Only 60% of American college students have a 4 year degree within 6 years of starting college. Some of those will go back at some point, but that's a huge portion of money spent on college that doesn't even result in degrees. Of the people that do get degrees, a huge portion of those don't use their degrees in their every day lives or gain anything from it that significantly benefits society.

That's a pretty bad use of money, but an even worse use of money is just forgiving all current student debt. That's just giving away a trillion dollars for nothing in a way that rewards people for not paying their debts.

I'm all for making huge investments in education, but I'm just not for lighting money on fire. That's real money that can be spent on real things that can save peoples' lives or make the world a much better place in a variety of other ways, so it's pretty important to spend it wisely.
It's a 'reset' if you will. A new deal program to get people out of poverty and start a whole new system.

It's not about rewards for people not paying debt. It will help, particularly, millennials who are saddled with debt and can see no way forward. It saves them, then gives them the ability to find their way in the world (begin to accrue some savings, perhaps buy home, invest - whatever. Be free enough to start the American Dream).

Then it redesigns the whole system so that this will NOT happen again. This is the New Deal for those with student loan debt.

Anyway, not everyone will like it. But I do :).
 
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It's a 'reset' if you will. A new deal program to get people out of poverty and start a whole new system.

It's not about rewards for people not paying debt. It will help, particularly, millennials who are saddled with debt and can see no way forward. It saves them, then gives them the ability to find their way in the world (begin to accrue some savings, perhaps buy home, invest - whatever. Be free enough to start the American Dream).

Then it redesigns the whole system so that this will NOT happen again. This is the New Deal for those with student loan debt.

Anyway, not everyone will like it. But I do :).
If the goal is to get people out of poverty, a lot more could be accomplished with the same amount of money by aiming the spending at the poorest Americans instead Americans with student loan debt. There are a lot of people with student loan debt that are way better off than many poor people who never went to college. There are also many people without student debt that were in similar situations to people that still have debt, but that worked very hard to pay it off and would get nothing while others get huge sums of money. It isn't really a very rational or just way of spending money.

That being said, here's 3 things I think we agree on:

1. Education is important and Americans are under educated for the amount of resources we have.

2. College is way too expensive.

3. The government should do something about #2.

Where we disagree is that I don't think that free tuition and/or debt cancellation does anything at all to lower the cost of college. It just redistributes the bill so that instead of students getting ripped off, tax payers in general get ripped off.

The cost of tuition in America is exploding at a rate much higher than the rate of inflation, and it has been for a long time. Even though there are hundreds of colleges for people to choose from, competition doesn't really do that much to keep prices down for college tuition like it does for lots of other things, because most people aren't spending out of pocket to pay for it. Even though people know they have to pay loans back eventually, the delayed payment makes people much less careful when it comes to considering cost.

Given that market forces don't really keep colleges in check, they gouge students and the government because they can. The government should be stepping in with regulations to better reduce the cost of tuition instead of stepping in with bags of money to shower on overpaid administrators at the expense of tax payers.
 

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It isn't high on my list of priorities either, but to me she's much more than just kind of nerdy. Listening to her talk is about on the same level as having someone crunching Cheetos right in my ear with their mouth open. I can't even fully explain why.

At least this free college stuff gives me a less superficial reason to not vote for her. Free college is a terrible idea. There's already way too many people in college that have no business being there. Instead of subsidizing peoples' bad decisions, we need to start doing a better job of presenting life options for people in high school instead of just telling everyone they should go to college when most of them are destined to fail.

I haven't done research but at least ten years ago in Germany ( i lived with a german exchange student here), at 16 you kinda tested for what route you would go - technical school or higher ed. Either was paid for but you would be placed. I don't hate that idea either.