Something I just want to mention...

[Jerami]

"I think a lot of people just don't realize it takes more money than a one time donation to run it."

If people are bright enough to turk and make money, they're bright enough to realize--God, I hope--that it takes more than just a one-time donation to keep this forum alive, nes pa?

And I knew that Jaded wasn't around, and didn't expect her to respond right away.

I think part of the reason for people moving on is that a lot of people rely on this as a way to make money, over a social site. Part of what happens, it seems, is that the rules start to devolve, and it turns into a situation where the inmates are running the asylum. First what happens is that shitposting(of which I am more than guilty) starts to exceed HITs posted, in the 'Daily'. Then people stop using the other bits of the forum altogether. New member intros, Mturk help, Social discussion, other ways to make money, all end up in the 'Daily'. Then it starts to get cluttered and hard to moderate, hard to keep up with, and hard to increase your earnings using the site. It becomes more of a distraction than it's benefit and people move to the fancy new site(or make their own) where everything is new and shiny and the posts all go where they are supposed to and, it just works better. (i'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong because I feel that these things sort of happen organically, usually.)

That's my reasoning for why people jump ship. I can't disagree with the logic regardless of the fact that I'll still be here. Once again, not slagging MTC, just putting into words what seems to happen every few years and part of why I think it happens.

 

[ChristopherASA]

I think part of the reason for people moving on is that a lot of people rely on this as a way to make money, over a social site. Part of what happens, it seems, is that the rules start to devolve, and it turns into a situation where the inmates are running the asylum. First what happens is that shitposting(of which I am more than guilty) starts to exceed HITs posted, in the 'Daily'. Then people stop using the other bits of the forum altogether. New member intros, Mturk help, Social discussion, other ways to make money, all end up in the 'Daily'. Then it starts to get cluttered and hard to moderate, hard to keep up with, and hard to increase your earnings using the site. It becomes more of a distraction than it's benefit and people move to the fancy new site(or make their own) where everything is new and shiny and the posts all go where they are supposed to and, it just works better. (i'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong because I feel that these things sort of happen organically, usually.)

That's my reasoning for why people jump ship. I can't disagree with the logic regardless of the fact that I'll still be here. Once again, not slagging MTC, just putting into words what seems to happen every few years and part of why I think it happens.

Ya, I can see that. 'Course, people can always just select "HITs only" in Thread Tools. But I get your drift. Thanks, Mr. Thinker!!

 

[Jerami]

Ya, I can see that. 'Course, people can always just select "HITs only" in Thread Tools. But I get your drift. Thanks, Mr. Thinker!!

I accidentally went HITs only a few days ago. I thought the forum had shut down.

 

[ChristopherASA]

I accidentally went HITs only a few days ago. I thought the forum had shut down.

LOLLOL

 

[aveline]

I think part of the reason for people moving on is that a lot of people rely on this as a way to make money, over a social site. Part of what happens, it seems, is that the rules start to devolve, and it turns into a situation where the inmates are running the asylum. First what happens is that shitposting(of which I am more than guilty) starts to exceed HITs posted, in the 'Daily'. Then people stop using the other bits of the forum altogether. New member intros, Mturk help, Social discussion, other ways to make money, all end up in the 'Daily'. Then it starts to get cluttered and hard to moderate, hard to keep up with, and hard to increase your earnings using the site. It becomes more of a distraction than it's benefit and people move to the fancy new site(or make their own) where everything is new and shiny and the posts all go where they are supposed to and, it just works better. (i'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong because I feel that these things sort of happen organically, usually.)

That's my reasoning for why people jump ship. I can't disagree with the logic regardless of the fact that I'll still be here. Once again, not slagging MTC, just putting into words what seems to happen every few years and part of why I think it happens.

I agree with much of that. When people seek out an MTurk forum, they're not looking for a place to make friends, or a place to talk about what they're having for dinner. They're looking for a place to find work and learn how to get better at using this platform. All of the other stuff comes later, as people that have been around for a while might not necessarily need the forum for work so much anymore, so it just starts to become a sort of water cooler for them. They're more likely to talk about stuff going on in their lives than they are to talk about work. And I think, over time, an aging forum community will start to lean heavily towards the off-topic/water cooler talk (which was a problem that we always kinda had here since we started off with a rather tight-knit community from MTG that had already mostly been around for several years.) You also have the problem of cliques forming within the community over time, and that can often seem very uninviting to people (it was a complaint I heard time and time again during my time here.)

So the more heavily the forum leans in that direction, the less it tends to attract those people that are initially just looking for MTurk help. If a brand new turker is looking for a forum to help them make some money, and they're presented with two options, they're more often than not going to pick the one that seems to offer them the most in regards to MTurk. And that's not always just newer turkers, either. There are many people that are only on here to make money, not to socialize, and they'll move to wherever they feel it's easier for them to make some money.

I think it's important for there to always be a balance between the two, to make sure a forum like this can continue to thrive. Unfortunately, that balance can be very difficult to find because often all you have to go off of are the complaints from people that either want it all one way or the other. As a staff member it was hard because we would sit here and listen to constant complaints about the off-topic stuff getting out of control so we would try to do something about it, and that would end up angering the people that just wanted to socialize (or shitpost) and they would villainize us for it. So we'd go back the other way and all of those people that wanted more of a work focus would start accusing us of not caring or not doing our jobs. But I think over time we did kinda cave a bit to the off-topic/shitposters and that drove a lot of people away. It's just too easy to go elsewhere when you have a forum next door that is doing everything MTurk-related better, if that's what you're looking to get out of an MTurk forum.

It also doesn't help that MTurk is not as easy to earn a living on as it once was. The available work has seemed to decrease steadily over the last few years while the number of workers fighting over that work has steadily risen. And I think the community has changed in many ways too, which may be good or bad depending on who you ask. I know we lost a lot of our long-time core just because they decided it was time to move on from MTurk itself, not just from the forum.

 

[Jerami]

I agree with much of that. When people seek out an MTurk forum, they're not looking for a place to make friends, or a place to talk about what they're having for dinner. They're looking for a place to find work and learn how to get better at using this platform. All of the other stuff comes later, as people that have been around for a while might not necessarily need the forum for work so much anymore, so it just starts to become a sort of water cooler for them. They're more likely to talk about stuff going on in their lives than they are to talk about work. And I think, over time, an aging forum community will start to lean heavily towards the off-topic/water cooler talk (which was a problem that we always kinda had here since we started off with a rather tight-knit community from MTG that had already mostly been around for several years.) You also have the problem of cliques forming within the community over time, and that can often seem very uninviting to people (it was a complaint I heard time and time again during my time here.)

So the more heavily the forum leans in that direction, the less it tends to attract those people that are initially just looking for MTurk help. If a brand new turker is looking for a forum to help them make some money, and they're presented with two options, they're more often than not going to pick the one that seems to offer them the most in regards to MTurk. And that's not always just newer turkers, either. There are many people that are only on here to make money, not to socialize, and they'll move to wherever they feel it's easier for them to make some money.

I think it's important for there to always be a balance between the two, to make sure a forum like this can continue to thrive. Unfortunately, that balance can be very difficult to find because often all you have to go off of are the complaints from people that either want it all one way or the other. As a staff member it was hard because we would sit here and listen to constant complaints about the off-topic stuff getting out of control so we would try to do something about it, and that would end up angering the people that just wanted to socialize (or shitpost) and they would villainize us for it. So we'd go back the other way and all of those people that wanted more of a work focus would start accusing us of not caring or not doing our jobs. But I think over time we did kinda cave a bit to the off-topic/shitposters and that drove a lot of people away. It's just too easy to go elsewhere when you have a forum next door that is doing everything MTurk-related better, if that's what you're looking to get out of an MTurk forum.

It also doesn't help that MTurk is not as easy to earn a living on as it once was. The available work has seemed to decrease steadily over the last few years while the number of workers fighting over that work has steadily risen. And I think the community has changed in many ways too, which may be good or bad depending on who you ask. I know we lost a lot of our long-time core just because they decided it was time to move on from MTurk itself, not just from the forum.

Thanks for this, Ave! Glad to see that you agree with some of my PM of the situation. As one of the last to try and stick and make MTG work, I know all too well the playbook of the decline of a forum.(other personal issues with owners aside) It is nice to get some confirmation from someone behind the scenes about what seemed to be happening.
"As a staff member it was hard because we would sit here and listen to constant complaints about the off-topic stuff getting out of control so we would try to do something about it, and that would end up angering the people that just wanted to socialize (or shitpost) and they would villainize us for it. So we'd go back the other way and all of those people that wanted more of a work focus would start accusing us of not caring or not doing our jobs. But I think over time we did kinda cave a bit to the off-topic/shitposters and that drove a lot of people away."

I never understood why people got so upset about moving it to the Social Thread. People always took it as, "Mods are assholes" when really it was just the mods saying, "shitpost away and make as little as you like, just keep it over here in the 'play area' so it doesn't get in the way of people who want to work and get distracted easily". I think if that had happened, everything would have chugged along as normal, a small outflux always happening when now forums open.(newer=better?) But, also people need to realized that as a user-supported "freemium" forum, Mods and admins can only put in so much.(Time, effort, frustration, repeating yourself until you're blue in the face, etc.) Most, if not all, were also trying to make money, live their lives and maybe make a great place for everyone. But, as a volunteer, you(as a group) can only be expected to put up with so much before you have to make the decision that eases the burden of your position, whether that's stepping down, easing up on your 'responsibility' or your invested time, and that should be understandable to everyone, with a little thought.
s
Anyway, it is what it is. Glad to have your input. Also nice to know that I wasn't losing my mind("wasn't @aveline a mod? Was that somewhere else.") I know that you have very little to do with administration of things but, I also know that you have relationships with the people that do. If they are ever asking for suggestions of people who would like to help out. Make sure to throw my name in the hat. You know me, always willing to help. And I take a lot of pride in what I do.

Thanks again Aveline, all future and past mods, admins, mentors, and HIT posters. Without all of us this would just be a bunch of people talking about their lunch.

 

[mboone73]

I'm probably the worst when it comes to shit posting, but I do try to post hits when I can. Lately, there's not much worth posting when I get home from work. I felt bad when the forum awards died after I won hit poster. And I dropped the mentor banner because I thought it was a poor reflection of the forum.

I don't want to take shots at any other place, but I don't necessarily agree that all things happening elsewhere make it better for turking. But, what the hell do I know?

I will say that the sense of community is what drew me here. I hadn't felt that before, or since. I kind of like you guys.

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[esprit-hyperdoux]

I will say that the sense of community is what drew me here

it's inevitable that it's the community of forum users that makes a forum what it is, in large part if not entirely. and it's inevitable that what one person finds offputting will feel like home for another. thank you pig for saying the positive thing that i needed to balance out the overly negative thing i typed and which is under this spoiler

Spoiler: taking pot shots i guess

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[aveline]

I'm probably the worst when it comes to shit posting, but I do try to post hits when I can. Lately, there's not much worth posting when I get home from work. I felt bad when the forum awards died after I won hit poster. And I dropped the mentor banner because I thought it was a poor reflection of the forum.

I don't want to take shots at any other place, but I don't necessarily agree that all things happening elsewhere make it better for turking. But, what the hell do I know?

I will say that the sense of community is what drew me here. I hadn't felt that before, or since. I kind of like you guys.

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I didn't realize you were the last one. I think the forum award situation could have been dealt with much better. I had kinda reached my breaking point with the forum for several reasons, and I was dealing with other stress in my life at the time, so I just kinda yanked the awards abruptly without having much of a discussion about it because I just didn't want to deal with it. The people that said the monetary reward didn't matter were right, and it should have just continued without one. That has always been something that brings the community together and I think the forum loses something without the community involvement in stuff like that.

I'm glad that the sense of community drew you here. I've always considered that to be our greatest strength. My post about newer turkers just looking for work makes a lot of generalizations, but I do think it holds true for a lot of people. Mostly the ones that aren't so active in the community, but still play a role on the forum by adding to the HIT discussion from time to time.

And one thing that I didn't mention in my previous post, was that it wasn't just the work/play balance that drove people away, it was our enforcement (or lack of enforcement) that also drove people away. I would even say that it really disrupted our "sense of community" quite a bit at points. It's not always easy to find a balance between what hundreds of different people want from a forum, when even the people on staff can't always decide on what's best. It's hard.

I like the forum as it is now. It's small enough that none of this matters. It finds its balance on its own and the people that don't like it have no obligation to stay.

 

[mboone73]

People will never run out of things to complain about. I probably should have shown more appreciation to the mods/admins past and present.

I'd be happy to help @Jaded with the awards if I can. Or maybe bringing back games and stuff. I'm very good at not turking.

 

[esprit-hyperdoux]

I'd be happy to help @Jaded with the awards if I can. Or maybe bringing back games and stuff. I'm very good at not turking.

honestly if there's anything i can do i'm glad to help out too? as long as it's tedious and/or technical & doesn't involve interacting with too many people lol

 

[Jerami]

it's inevitable that it's the community of forum users that makes a forum what it is, in large part if not entirely. and it's inevitable that what one person finds offputting will feel like home for another. thank you pig for saying the positive thing that i needed to balance out the overly negative thing i typed and which is under this spoiler

Spoiler: taking pot shots i guess

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JFC! I like a good joke but, just feel like there's no need for that.
Tbh, I'm not even sure which one the new one is, that everyone went to. Was it TH? Idk. I've never been there. Don't you have to pay to use it? Not ike that's a bad thing just the reason why I never checked it. But, I have no basis for comparison with the new one. Only the old one before this.

And one thing that I didn't mention in my previous post, was that it wasn't just the work/play balance that drove people away, it was our enforcement (or lack of enforcement) that also drove people away. I would even say that it really disrupted our "sense of community" quite a bit at points. It's not always easy to find a balance between what hundreds of different people want from a forum, when even the people on staff can't always decide on what's best. It's hard...
I like the forum as it is now. It's small enough that none of this matters. It finds its balance on its own and the people that don't like it have no obligation to stay.

This did bother me and occasionally still. But, I've also just learned to deal with it because, honestly, as a user what can I do? Plus, I'm sure my utter contempt for posts that contain "content" is mostly my own issue and I probably take "past the preview page" too literally for most. Part of my disease is being very literal with some things. It's a problem I've dealt with my entire life. I have a problem with synonyms, I think. I feel like when they taught them to me, I felt like they were describing them wrong. They'd always say, "Find synonyms. Different words with the same meaning". I felt like there were very few words that shared exact meanings but, if you change your requirement to '...with nearly the same meaning' it's fine. I can do that. Almost like I'm taking even those instructions about synonyms too literally. It's annoying, even to me, sometimes. I apologize for that. I've been working on it.

honestly if there's anything i can do i'm glad to help out too? as long as it's tedious and/or technical & doesn't involve interacting with too many people lol

People will never run out of things to complain about. I probably should have shown more appreciation to the mods/admins past and present.

I'd be happy to help @Jaded with the awards if I can. Or maybe bringing back games and stuff. I'm very good at not turking.

So, that's 3 of us that would love to help. I'm sure between the 3 of us, we can perform the tasks of an entire human.
We can split a banner. I want the middle!

Also, I hope nobody is upset by the OP. I wasn't trying to make anyone angry. Just stating an opinion because I care about things.

 

[mboone73]

So, that's 3 of us that would love to help. I'm sure between the 3 of us, we can perform the tasks of an entire human.
We can split a banner. I want the middle!

 

[Jerami]

So, perfect! I remember that episode. Know what I just realized though? I loved that show and never binged them and probably haven't seen a good amount, because of that. I've seen a few seasons that a friend owned on dvd but, the rest was on "air" tv.(something old)
I should watch them.

Also, if anyone wants a light-hearted laugh, I'm watching Mrs Brown's Boys Christmas Special. It's really good.

 

[basketcasey]

This is an interesting discussion, though I'm not sure it will get us anywhere. It is nice to hear different people's viewpoints on the matter.

I'm still here occasionally, but not very often. I haven't disappeared entirely though. I don't think it boils down to a single reason either, but several. For me, one of the main reasons is the daily thread became pretty depressing/off topic. And I'm not talking about fun gifs and mini water cooler-type work breaks. I'm talking TMI personal issues, existential crises, whining and moaning, and other sorts of things that turned me off. Honestly, it felt like the daily thread had turned into a sad pandas redux thread. I get it, turking sucks. It's hard. Life's hard. I just think there is a time and place for such things, and it's not in the daily thread on an turking forum. Again, this is just my perspective as a person who is pretty private about personal matters. I just found it off-putting to log-in and see pages long serious - and often divisive - discussions going on before I'd even had my coffee.

Another reason - already mentioned by others here - is that this forum lost its work focus. I know I've taken the thread off on a tangent many times, and often ramble on, but I also turk hard and tried to balance my posting between general nonsense and work-related stuff. I felt that people who shared hits were often overlooked, which was also weird to me since it is a turking forum, after all. I even remember at one point the admins had to encourage people to like when users posted hits. I always found it weird that people never did this before. I know this is an almost impossible balance to achieve on a social site for turking. It's something I noticed, and I'm sure several others did as well.

I think TH is definitely more work-related, especially with TV now. I wouldn't say I switched entirely - the only thing I really post there are TV reviews. I haven't mingled or interacted with people as I have done here. I do think it's much more helpful for people that are serious about turking. They offer more tools, they have more activity in the daily thread, requester post there, etc.

I also just don't keep up very much with turking forums anymore. I met a ton of friends here and I'm thankful for that. It feels like most of the users I interacted with most and most of the regular users here, just moved on. So that was probably part of my interacting here less. There are always ebbs and flows to life, and turking forums apparently.

Finally, to me it felt like the mods/admins gave up and this trickled down to the members. The mods/admins here worked hard and did a largely thankless job. I don't blame them for getting burnt out on it. You can't make everyone happy, especially on the internet. But I think they handled it poorly. Most of the mods/admins seemed to check out and left the inmates to run the asylum. Then they wondered what happened to the forum? I'm not pointing fingers, but if you don't seem to care about the forum, why would anyone else? I think that they should have turned it over to different mods/admins before that point, but I understand if no one was willing to step up. I know I offered to help at one point and even suggested we keep the awards with no monetary rewards for morale, but that never happened. It just feels like they gave up, so it's no wonder why so many users followed their lead and did the same.

Excuse the rambles.

 

[scrmcasey]

This is an interesting discussion, though I'm not sure it will get us anywhere. It is nice to hear different people's viewpoints on the matter.

I'm still here occasionally, but not very often. I haven't disappeared entirely though. I don't think it boils down to a single reason either, but several. For me, one of the main reasons is the daily thread became pretty depressing/off topic. And I'm not talking about fun gifs and mini water cooler-type work breaks. I'm talking TMI personal issues, existential crises, whining and moaning, and other sorts of things that turned me off. Honestly, it felt like the daily thread had turned into a sad pandas redux thread. I get it, turking sucks. It's hard. Life's hard. I just think there is a time and place for such things, and it's not in the daily thread on an turking forum. Again, this is just my perspective as a person who is pretty private about personal matters. I just found it off-putting to log-in and see pages long serious - and often divisive - discussions going on before I'd even had my coffee.

Another reason - already mentioned by others here - is that this forum lost its work focus. I know I've taken the thread off on a tangent many times, and often ramble on, but I also turk hard and tried to balance my posting between general nonsense and work-related stuff. I felt that people who shared hits were often overlooked, which was also weird to me since it is a turking forum, after all. I even remember at one point the admins had to encourage people to like when users posted hits. I always found it weird that people never did this before. I know this is an almost impossible balance to achieve on a social site for turking. It's something I noticed, and I'm sure several others did as well.

I think TH is definitely more work-related, especially with TV now. I wouldn't say I switched entirely - the only thing I really post there are TV reviews. I haven't mingled or interacted with people as I have done here. I do think it's much more helpful for people that are serious about turking. They offer more tools, they have more activity in the daily thread, requester post there, etc.

I also just don't keep up very much with turking forums anymore. I met a ton of friends here and I'm thankful for that. It feels like most of the users I interacted with most and most of the regular users here, just moved on. So that was probably part of my interacting here less. There are always ebbs and flows to life, and turking forums apparently.

Finally, to me it felt like the mods/admins gave up and this trickled down to the members. The mods/admins here worked hard and did a largely thankless job. I don't blame them for getting burnt out on it. You can't make everyone happy, especially on the internet. But I think they handled it poorly. Most of the mods/admins seemed to check out and left the inmates to run the asylum. Then they wondered what happened to the forum? I'm not pointing fingers, but if you don't seem to care about the forum, why would anyone else? I think that they should have turned it over to different mods/admins before that point, but I understand if no one was willing to step up. I know I offered to help at one point and even suggested we keep the awards with no monetary rewards for morale, but that never happened. It just feels like they gave up, so it's no wonder why so many users followed their lead and did the same.

Excuse the rambles.

I agree with you on much of this, and it makes me sad because I love this forum.

 

[ElleWoods]

I haven't been around a lot due to life. It happens. I'm poor with checking in. But TBH I joined here to get work. I've found other/better/more efficient ways of doing that now that dont involve all the personal BS the @basketcasey mentioned above.

 

[Jerami]

Hey everyone. I appreciate everyone's perspective on this. I honestly do. Thanks for all the replies and long personal posts. But, since I started this thread, is there any way to close it? Maybe with the help of @jan or @Jaded Part of the reason I created this thread was to move my response to @ChristopherASA 's OP in the 'Daily' to the Forum Discussion area where any long comment on my view of what was going on and why there may be less donation going on. I'm glad we've got to hear from everyone from pretty much ever different "demographic", from just Contributing Members, to HIT Posters, Past "Staff", Volunteers with no obligated responsibility who help because they want to make the place better, like Mentors and even Requesters.

Now, I feel what needs to be said, has been said.

This is an interesting discussion, though I'm not sure it will get us anywhere. It is nice to hear different people's viewpoints on the matter.

You're absolutely right. It was interesting but, wasn't really meant to go anywhere. It's great that we got to hear about what people felt happened.
But, I'm afraid if we start to get everyone's view we're going to get everyone restating what we all know has happened and we've heard it from every side. I just don't want it to devolve into multiple pages of everyone paraphrasing how the staff, failed, or quit, or let us, or themselves down with varying degrees of respect(which are fine but, could always come out worse) for the effort and situations that were going on behind the scenes. I also don't want it to turn into a "what's wrong with this forum" thread, which it hasn't but, easily could. I don't want it to get into a comparison of this site to sites that I have no real interest in and haven't visited because people look for different things in a forum and, what may suck for you, may be great for Bugakingz. Anyway, Right now, this thread is great and I'm not complaining about anything that's been posted. But, I don't want it to be a big list of negative stuff, over again when I felt that it's all been covered.

If anyone who needs to get it out, want to start a "What I didn't like about this forum" Thread, please feel free. If you need help, I'm happy to.
Much better, if anyone wants to start a, "what I can do to make it better thread" I'm even more happy to help, as I feel it would be much more productive.

Also, really when I started this thread, I was kinda just trying to point out that ChristopherASA's original post, which I quoted, should really have been in the Forum Discussion area and, if I was going to respond to it, I wanted to move it here so I wasn't part of the problem, while I was talking about the problem of miscategorized posts(different from shitposts) and how the disorganization can make the forum less effective, making the forum less effective and people less likely to donate.(In short saying, "Christopher, lets move this over here so we can be an example rather than part of the problem because these things snowball."

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)

Now, lastly, I am going to say that, if nobody will/can help me close this one, since we've all figured out what happened and written it here, and if people do need to continue with the direction the thread has taken, I'm not going to say please, I'm going to say be very respectful. As much as we can refer to groups of people, and the group identity has no emotions, those groups are made up very hard working very hard working people. Like all people, they do their best. They get tired. They make mistakes and decisions that turn out wrong, like all of us. And nobody needs their mistakes pointed out multiple times, in print, in many different ways, over and over again, from person after person. Even though what any one person says may not be very bad, in total, they can be discouraging, overwhelming, it's just plain mean and can come off as bullying, to be given a thumbs down by lots of people. Nobody in this thread has done anything wrong. Don't take it as if you have. I just feel we've said everything and none of it needs to be repeated

@jan said she's gonna help. Thanks for everyone's input. It was all valid. I hope to see you in the, "What can we do to help make it better" thread. Hve a good day!

 

[Jaded]

Closed by request

 

[jenaling]

Since a good, open discussion about what's gone wrong and what could possibly be a way forward was closed before I could even finish reading it, let alone comment, here's the recommended continuation.

First, this isn't about a particular person but I think what happened here is emblematic of a problem a few people brought up in that (actually excellent, useful and aborted) thread.

So if anyone else has thoughts or responses, please feel free to add them here.

It was suggested that anyone who wanted to start a "What I didn't like about this forum" thread I'll say that's a fine use of this space. As is, "What I do like about this forum" and "What I want to see in the future of this forum."

Shutting down discussion just when people are beginning to engage doesn't help rebuild trust or interest. Letting people who want to vent, talk, plan etc. can. But only if we let it.